Leading Around Indecisive Leaders: A Lesson in Tact

A few years ago, I was a defacto leader on a team and I had a boss who was super indecisive. I’m not sure I blamed him, because his boss was indecisive as well and it was a VERY political company. 

Our guy in charge - our guy in the chief officer position at the time was very much a bully. People would leave meetings with him in TEARS and some would throw up from anxiety before meetings with him. In any case, my boss was twice removed and his boss was afraid of this guy. That paralyzed our whole department. We couldn’t make a decision because of fear.

That doesn’t sound like a good situation, right? 

Well – here’s a quick aside - I honestly didn’t care if I was fired, because my husband and I were totally out of debt and had what we called FU money. That’s money we could rely on to tide us over until I found another job.

If that sounds like something you want to build, go to saverstreet.com and book a complimentary consultation. Let’s build your FU money so you can leave your toxic workplace.

I decided that the toxic culture needed to change, I needed to get people to make a friggen decision and fund my projects… or don’t. I just needed to know. I’m still a little salty about it. Can you tell? It was a bit of an uphill battle and I made some mistakes.

Let me tell you what I learned about leading a team when management is indecisive.

Book a complimentary management coaching conversation at https://calendly.com/catherine-vanderlaan/free-60-minute-leadership-consultation

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Transcript

[Applause] [Music]

this is the key you ask people on your team how they are what's going on in their lives and you really listen those two questions usually took about 10 minutes out of the 30 minutes do not skip those questions do not skip those questions if you want to be a leader that people want to follow welcome to management material my name is Catherine vanderlaan I started my career at the bottom as an assistant and worked my way up to become the boss's boss in eight years and man I love management if there's anything I've learned is that what got you to where you are now won't get you to where you want to be welcome to episode 48 of management material today we are talking about how to lead a hybrid or remote team running effective and inclusive of meetings so how do we do this how do we make everyone feel included when we are hybrid or remote I know I'm a little behind the ball this is actually a a question that somebody in my Christians in the workplace group that's a free group for Christians that meet on Zoom once a month we asked that's this is something that that he asked someone in my group best about oh I don't know like four months ago five months ago something like that so I'm a little behind the ball here and this is something that I thought kind of everyone knew but it sounds like a lot of people are struggling with this so I do a little bit of career coaching I do a little bit of of helping people become managers is you can understand here listening to management material and uh so if you want that go to sabershoot.com but this this is something that one of my members of of Christians in the workplace asked how do I help everyone feel included and feel part of a team when we are mostly all remote or some of us are in the office and some of us are not so he is a peer leader for a team that is half in the office and half working from home and to be clear he's not their boss so he's not the boss here here he's kind of a peer leader at work and he wanted to get better at helping everyone feel included and part of the team so he is becoming a leader people want to follow and he is doing this without being the boss first that's how you do it that's how you get to become a manager is you become a p a person a leader people want to follow before you're the boss okay it's a it's a little not cart before the horse it is putting the horse before the cart so you have to be the leader first anyway so he's trying to do that and this this actually really sounded like the dynamic that I had as a product manager so I I was a sort of peer leader and I was told constantly you are at the level of their boss but you're not their boss so you have to influence without Authority half my team was in the office and the other half worked from home from all over the United States like in Arizona California and at one point uh it was all around the world so I had people in India and and the UK and and just just everywhere we had people from all different time zones and I mean all different time zones so it was so add to this mix not just people who are working remotely like like they are now and and thankfully the world has changed in a way where a lot of people can work remotely instead of taking that commute but we we had people who were all over the world all over the world in all different time zones and we also had one of the most sought after teams in the company so let that sink in people asked to work on our team they asked for a reassignment hey is there a spot open are they expanding the team so how did we create a thriving team Dynamic that included everyone in person and remote people remotely were asking to join our team people in California were were asking to join our team well the very first thing to remember you are not your customer hey if you have been listening for a while you've heard me say that and it might seem like it came out of left field you are not your customer but let's translate that truth to this situation you are not your team members what you need to feel included is not what they need to feel included so how do you figure out what they need well you have to step in their shoes and another word for that is is empathy and I know okay oh why are we talking about empathy and management material why are we and I I'm not here to call you a psychopath you're probably not a psychopath very few people are um but I want you to build that empathy muscle a little bit more exercise it step in their shoes think about their situation their perspective them think about what you know about them and then ask them how would they like to feel included what would help them be more part of the team ask them that is how you build this empathy muscle that is how you know how they want to feel included second and this is not rocket science guys this is this is something that that you could have probably figured out but let's just make it systematic okay that's that's my I love doing that second make sure to include them in regular meetings and communicate with them frequently people like being talked to I don't know about you but I need regular routines and reminders literally right in front of me so that I remember things maybe that's ADHD I don't know what it is but I need reminders and routines so I remember things I will even forget about people if their names aren't right in front of me heck I worked with a team for over a year and I still had to sit down if it wasn't in front of my reminders like if it wasn't right in front of me and think about exactly who was on my team I regularly forgot people and it wasn't because I didn't care about them it's because I probably have ADHD right that you know I I don't know what it was but it it's who I am and what I need so this point include them in regular meetings communicate with them frequently if you need it write people down that's why I have color-coded whiteboards everywhere now as a coach I have my clients on a whiteboard in front of me color coded so I remember who's who what we're doing and to reach out okay anyway when I was a product manager and I had a team all over the world I had a few new regular meeting scheduled I had a weekly team priority meeting which is different than a status meeting a team priority meeting and a weekly or every other week one-on-one check-in with each team member who wasn't on site that's key that's key it might seem like a lot but it's not a lot if you run them properly the first meeting is that Weekly priority meeting this was a forward-looking meeting we did not I repeat we did not review what we did last week nobody cares I used to say that all the time this is not a status meeting nobody cares this is not a what I did last week nobody cares instead we ran through a list of what we plan to accomplish this coming week then we could ask questions of other team members so so this was to encourage collaboration and communication that wasn't going through me I didn't want to be the bottleneck I was the leader not a bottleneck okay so some people took a while to figure out that we legitimately nobody cared in that meeting what they accomplished the last week that wasn't the purpose the reason for having this meeting was to touch base coordinate on upcoming projects and make sure everyone was prioritizing the right things for other people to make our team work well and collaborate well this meeting included remote team members and on-site members so so we would meet in my cramped little small office everyone would be standing up and we would write on a whiteboard I got specific technology so that it was a it was just a Jabra speaker guys so that our remote team members could come in and they could be loud and they could hear everything that was happening in the room and then somebody they would write their priorities for the coming week in in a Google sheet online or I think maybe we were using OneNote or SharePoint or something like that anyway and then somebody would transcribe it onto the Whiteboard they would have a view of the Whiteboard and a view of our room so they were involved they were involved and at some point and I know we've all done this we would have discussions in the room I would remember okay who's the expert or who has an opinion on this and I would stop our discussion in the room and say Hey you know so-and-so on the on Zoom do you have would you like to say something is is anybody on the phone do you have a point here and they got really really really good at interrupting us because I wanted them to because I communicated that I wanted them to and that it would be awkward but that's okay and we respect them on zoom and our remote people and so we said okay interrupt us let's go so we would go one at a time doing our priorities and then asking a very simple question hey did I forget anything for anyone speak up now or forever hold your piece or email me later so most people would just speak up and they wouldn't ask a status that's not what the meeting's for but they'd say hey don't forget you you promised this thing for me I need it for my project and that would go on the priority list so everyone had a voice in that meeting all right it was a 30 minute meeting and we ran it quickly rapid fire all right now as the team leader I mentioned that I I also had weekly or every other week meetings with my remote team members this is important guys this is super important I and I was told by their bosses and my bosses to stop doing it it was a waste of time but I asked them is this a waste of time and they said no this is the most important meeting of the week so we kept going um and I didn't think it was a waste of time and they didn't think it was a waste of time so we set we set aside uh 30 minutes per week to chat or every other week uh more if we needed to coordinate on Pro projects and uh just so you know I'm not someone who needs a lot of quality time with other people to feel included and valued but I am not my customers and I am not my team members okay those 30-minute chats were all about the other person from setting it up to being in there I didn't talk about myself I wanted to know how they were then I asked them what was really going on in their lives and then I listened some more I mean really listen guys this is the key you ask people on your team how they are what's going on in their lives and you really listen those two questions usually took about 10 minutes out of the 30 minutes do not skip those questions do not skip those questions if you want to be a leader that people want to follow it's one of the most important things to listen and remember what people say you need to care about the people on your team okay stop if you are listening and you're not taking notes or you don't believe me think about who you follow who you willingly follow is it someone who is just a project manager who wants to get the most out of you or is it someone who asks you how you are and really listens to you okay do you see why this is so important now all right going into the the rest of the meeting here the next question or or topic for that 30-minute check-in is how can I help you with work what do you need from me so how can I help you and what do you need from me you're opening yourself up here and asking how you can best support your remote team member that is what that question's about how can I help you and what can I do for you I don't think I need to tell you to to listen and figure out what you can and can't do to help okay you know that already the second question this this second piece usually takes the next 20 minutes remember all right here's a little key thing remember to show your appreciation and encourage your team member okay encourage them in what they're doing and really mean it really mean it I'm not saying to say things that you don't mean you should say what you mean and find some nice things to say before that meeting especially if you're not good at encouraging people and and showing your appreciation right now write them down have something nice to say and work on it practice in a mirror I'm not joking practice being encouraging and appreciative in a mirror if it doesn't come naturally it gets easier over time and it is also key to being a leader people want to follow encouragement and appreciation go a long way here's the bottom line leading a team that's remote and half in person requires you to be intentional about a few things you need to think through what each person needs to feel like they're part of the team just ask him guys ask him think through it you are not your customer you are not your team member so I was on a product team we weren't fun and that's okay but the fun marketing teams that I knew they did like monthly Zoom happy hours the sales teams did like rapid fire check-ins uh daily sometimes and progress reports and then triage calls the engineering teams I know it did daily 10 minute stand-up Zoom meetings okay the product team that I ran did those weekly priority I mean stand-ups or or meetings which we just talked about and uh weekly one-on-one check-ins with each remote team member and me the leader every team's Dynamic worked for them because it's what their personalities needed so every Dynamic worked for them and that's okay that's good so find out what your team needs I gave you a few examples I gave you what my team did and why it worked obviously I think my team was the best run and it was clearly the highest achieving people loved it on that team they jumped from Department to Department to join my team and that's kind of weird and and it sounds like I'm bragging it's just the truth but what I did might not work for your team it's time for you to think through your team each person each contributor each assistant or heavy hitter and find out what they need to feel like their job matters like they're being listened to and like they can make a difference so people want to know that their job matters that they're being listened to and that they are making a difference so go for it guys I know you're becoming a leader people want to follow I know you can do this and by doing this before you are a manager you are showing people that you are management material I will see you in the next episode [Music] thank you for listening to management material if you like what you're listening to please rate US on iTunes I track those ratings like I tracked my GPA in college and let me know what else you want to hear about I'm an open book I can't wait to see you in the next episode [Music]